Comments
in thus far....
in
Germany it is forbidden by law as "agony breeding" to mate
blue-merle x blue-merle because of the possibilty to get blind and
deaf puppies.
I (and most of the German breeders) totally agree with this law and
I think, every puppy, born blind or deaf is one too much.
I
would welcome a decision of all breeders around the world, not to
do such matings at all.
Best
regards,
Michaela
Rukopf
Collies vom Haus Rukopf, Germany
*********************************************************************
I am totally against this line of breeding.
My friend recently bred her Blue Merle Bitch to a Tri stud dog from
a well esablished breeder.
So in thery my friends litter should have been Tri and Blue Merles
but when they were born she had 1 Blue dog properly marked 1 Tri properly
marked and 3 Double Dilutes
This proves that blue to blue matings was in the pedigree some where
along the line maybe generations back.
You may put a blue to a blue and get properly marked pups but some
where in that line maybe in years to come these Double Dilutes will
show themselves in the breeding.
I feel very srongly that this should be discouraged as these pups
can be blind deaf and have interrnal problems.
What are we as breeders doing breeding this sort of dog?
Some say they do this to inable them to breed a lighter blue merle.
But the question is do we really need to breed these pups knowing
that they possibly will have to be put to sleep through no fault of
their own.
That responsablity is with us the breeders who should'nt be doing
it in the first place.
NO TO THIS SORT OF BREEDINGbreeding.
I feel very srongly that this should be discouraged as these pups
can be blind deaf and have interrnal problems.
What are we as breeders doing breeding this sort of dog?
Some say they do this to inable them to breed a lighter blue merle.
But the question is do we really need to breed these pups knowing
that they possibly will have to be put to sleep through no fault of
their own.
That responsablity is with us the breeders who should'nt be doing
it in the first place.
NO TO THIS SORT OF BREEDING
**********************************************************************
Didn't
realise that this was to be discussed at their agm.
I have always been against Blue to Blue matings. I cannot understand
people who, as responsible breeders knowingly breed blind or deaf
puppies, under the guise of improving colour. I could not have puppies
without eyes or ears, and put them down, in the same way that I always
try to rear sickly puppies, even if they are ultimately beyond help.
If you think that a certain blue dog suits your blue bitch, then compromise
and use its tricolour brother/sire/son. To me its that simple.
************************************************************************
Having
read the comments regarding double merle breeding i feel it essential
to correct one statement as referred to in the second letter on this
topic. ' the possible production of dilutes from a tri to merle mating
when there are double merle bred parents
I am astounded that in today's climate where colour genetics are no
longer the mystery they were, anyone can actually believe these aforementioned
babies were dilutes, i can assure the breeder they were NOT. We have
in our breed three types of whites, one is dilute and this can ONLY
be inherited by mating two blue merles, the dilute gene cannot be
carried as a hidden recessive. However two other types of whites exist,
one is the colour headed white as seen in America (and yes it does
occasionally crop up in European litters) and the other 'white' is
a type of Albino. These are more common than one would think and look
very similar to a dilute white. Usually they have blue eyes even when
born to two sables but this is not connected to the dilute merle gene.
These white Albinos often have liver problems and the tricolour siblings
(if any) often have a chocolate or liver colour cast to the coat.
However these whites are not blind or deaf.
On the subject of double merle breeding, i feel we have sufficient
quality tricolours within the Breed to avoid this type of mating all
together. It was sometimes unavoidable in the past where quality was
often lacking, but it must be stressed that using an animal from a
double merle mating in ones breeding program does not endanger the
future progeny of the litter, and it is important to stamp out such
ignorance.
Angela Harvey (Wicani Collies)
ps
- would like to add another thought to my letter.
Breeding two blues together does not lighten the colour of the merle,
this is a fallacy. The correct clear silvery blue colour is produced
from the dilute gene working on a clear black, it is when two dilute
genes meet up that over dilution creates white with its subsequent
problems, it does not create a paler blue. Pale silvery blue relies
on a good clean tricolour gene for perfection. I should know, i have
bred over 50 blue merle litters and enjoyed over 30 years experience
perfecting this colour.
******************************************************************
Having
bred a good number of blue merle litters over the years I would like
to make a few practical observations on this controversial subject
of blue to blue mating's.
First of all I have never done a blue to blue mating because of the
horror of having to put down any white puppies in the resulting litters.
This caused me to look at the alternative of only using tricolours
and to carefully examine which would be the best tricolours to use
to try to get the clearest blue.
There is a school of thought which states you should only use blue-bred
tricolours and not sable-bred ones to obtain a good blue. However
I have used both blue-bred and sable-bred tricolours when mating to
a blue and obtained beautiful clear blue colours from both. The sable-bred
ones went back many generations on sable lines. The common denominator
was that they all had very black coats indicating that they did appear
to be carrying the jet black gene which seems to be necessary to get
that clear blue. Interestingly these same tricolours when mated to
sables also produced a lovely sable colour as well.
I have in the past used a tri who's coat at first appeared reasonably
black but who's colour tinged quickly in the sun and most of his blue
progeny turned out to be a disappointing darker, rather smokey shade,
some with a hint of fawn in places.
As a result I have no doubt that a tri carrying the jet black gene
is the essential factor in producing the correct beautiful blue colour,
and that there is no need to run the risks of blue to blue mating's.
However I am unhappy about a hard and fast rule forbidding such mating's
and would prefer a written directive on this subject pointing out
the pitfalls, leaving it to the individual to make their own informed
decision.
As an afterthought there have been incidents of people doing blue
to sable mating's in the belief that this too produced a beautiful
colour, which also can have distressing results.
I had a determined shaded sable bitch who produced two litters to
an equally determined blue dog who helped himself. On the first occasion
she had been mated to a sable dog and when well overdue my vet gave
her a caesarean to find she had 6 puppies, two sables who lived and
four blues, 3 of whom died. The surviving blue was very heavily marked
with white, about 50% of his body. I gave him to a friend who eventually
had to put him down at the age of 4. His eyesight was poor and his
heart was failing, The second litter took me by surprise as I didn't
realise she was even in whelp until quite late on. She had 2 tris,
1 sable and 2 blues. One blue was healthy but darkish in colour, the
other was pale and emaciated and had to be put to sleep soon after.
Three weeks later one of the tris appeared to be mentally defective
and after some consultation with my vet, we decided to put this one
down too - only two examples of what can happen in my experience but
enough to tell me this is not a road to go down either.
Fern Sargeant
16th March 07
***************************************************************************************
"I feel that the recommendations proposed by the
club to uphold the legislations put forward by the EEC are the first
step to take away our freedom of choice, and also is the first stages
towards eliminating blue merles completely, if this step is incorporated
into the C.A code of practise, and these issues are applied what will
they do next? start to tell us what and when we can breed! no-one
who has the genuine interest of this beautiful breed at heart takes
the decision to put a blue to a blue lightly and not without serious
scrutiny of all the parentage of the mating and with a specific purpose.
May be it is to do with the quality in recent years of our tricolour
males! who knows. But I think it is a warning as to the future intentions
of Government to meddle in what they know nothing about!!!!"
******************************************************************************************************
I am very pleased to see this discussion. I was taught 50 years ago,
at an early age , by Barbara W. Berg of Sunset Land Kennels in Anchorage,
Alaska of the dangers of blue to blue breeding. She and I both love
blues but she always said that a blue to a good tri was the ONLY
responsible breeding.
Several weeks ago I rescued and fostered a 3 year old white Shetland
Sheepdog who was both blind and deaf. He is bright, curious, and delightful
with a nose he uses like a compass. Shown a pathway once, he never
makes a mistake. I can assure you, however, that I do not approve
of the breeding that produced him. There were puppy pictures that
came with him. One of the parents was clearly a blue merle so I had
to assume
that the other parent was also. The other puppies were mostly domino
patterns.
I think blue-blue breeding ought to be outlawed since there are too
many people willing to take risks to produce a "pretty blue."
The blind
Sheltie was the product of a backyard breeder who probably didn't
know any better or who didn't care what the dangers were to the puppies.
Janet C. Moyer, Ph.D.
Shetland Sheepdogs
U.S.A.
*****************************************************************************************************8
There is another
side to this coin and a much more sinister one too. Has anyone bothered
to read the link on the CA site titled
The European Convention for the protection of Pet Animals. Having
a strong personal interest in this wonderful colour variety, and also
our Breed in general, i attended the CA AGM to discover first hand
the full intent of their proposal. Having listened to the relevant
points made concerning the government and European convention i decided
to check out this site; it is worthwhile to do so, and i would suggest
others with an interest in this colour do likewise. I would also suggest
to those interested, read the notes written above the CA code of practice
(found on the CA site) where an excellent explanation outlining the
reasons for such an inclusion is to be found. It would appear on deeper
investigation, this lovely and very ancient colour is indeed under
threat, and it is only by using common sense and adhering to these
KC guidelines, that i feel this colour will be assured a safe future.
Believe it or not, like it or not, we live in a nanny state, and we
must learn to navigate its waters if we wish to retain anything at
all of the beautiful breed our forebears fought to develop.
Secondly i would like to point out the CA have not advocated or given
any support to an actual ban on double blue breeding, but (and quite
rightly in my opinion) have stated that such mating's are not to be
encouraged.. The CA are not restricting the choice of the individual
breeder here, rather they advocate we do not encourage such a practice.
Surely this step is to be applauded.
Angela Harvey
March 21st
************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
October
2007
After showing and breeding Rough Collies for more than 20 years I
felt that I had the experience and judgement to do blue to blue breeding.
I took advice from some very experienced breeders and decided it was
the right thing to do. Unfortunately this did not work for me and
I had white defective puppies within this litter.
After
reading on the subject and doing numerous research I vowed I would
not do this again. But a few years later I was wanting a litter from
a blue bitch which I had and at the time I was not impressed with
any tri colour dogs that were on the show scene, so I decide to mate
my bitch to a blue dog of my own. This time I had a perfect litter
of all beautifully marked blue merles. I have since repeated blue
to blue matings on a couple of occasions with dogs and bitches of
completely different blood lines to have one total disaster and one
beautiful litter of puppies.
I agree
with Fern Sargeants views on if you use a tri colour with a truly
jet black coat and which carries the correct type genes you will produce
some beautiful coloured merles.
If I
had my time to come over again I think I would say that I would never
do merle to merle matings again, but I don't think I agree with banning
the practise altogether. Some of the nicest blues were from blue to
blue matings check your pedigrees.
It does
not always mean that you will get defective whites.
Sharon Harrington
April
2010
I am totally against this line
of breeding.
My friend recently bred her Blue Merle Bitch to a Tri stud dog from
a well esablished breeder.
So in thery my friends litter should have been Tri and Blue Merles
but when they were born she had 1 Blue dog properly marked 1 Tri properly
marked and 3 Double Dilutes
This proves that blue to blue matings was in the pedigree some where
along the line maybe generations back.
You may put a blue to a blue and get properly marked pups but some
where in that line maybe in years to come these Double Dilutes will
show themselves in the breeding.
I feel very srongly that this should be discouraged as these pups
can be blind deaf and have interrnal problems.
What are we as breeders doing breeding this sort of dog?
Some say they do this to inable them to breed a lighter blue merle.
But the question is do we really need to breed these pups knowing
that they possibly will have to be put to sleep through no fault of
their own.
That responsablity is with us the breeders who should'nt be doing
it in the first place.
NO TO THIS SORT OF BREEDINGbreeding.
I feel very srongly that this should
be discouraged as these pups can be blind deaf and have interrnal
problems.
What are we as breeders doing breeding this sort of dog?
Some say they do this to inable them to breed a lighter blue merle.
But the question is do we really need to breed these pups knowing
that they possibly will have to be put to sleep through no fault of
their own.
That responsablity is with us the breeders who should'nt be doing
it in the first place.
NO TO THIS SORT OF BREEDING
The "tri" in this breeding
was not a true tri-color, but was genetically a cryptic merle. The dog
HAD to be for them to produce any double dilutes. For reference, see
Dr. Sharon Vanderlips Collie book on genetics.
